Obama snubs Second Amendment and American made guns, M1 Garands from South Korea

Obama snubs Second Amendment and American made guns, M1 Garands from South Korea

From Fox News September 1, 2010.

“The South Korean government, in an effort to raise money for its military, wants to sell nearly a million antique M1 rifles that were used by U.S. soldiers in the Korean War to gun collectors in America.

The Obama administration approved the sale of the American-made rifles last year. But it reversed course and banned the sale in March – a decision that went largely unnoticed at the time but that is now sparking opposition from gun rights advocates.

A State Department spokesman said the administration’s decision was based on concerns that the guns could fall into the wrong hands.

“The transfer of such a large number of weapons — 87,310 M1 Garands and 770,160 M1 Carbines — could potentially be exploited by individuals seeking firearms for illicit purposes,” the spokesman told FoxNews.com.

“We are working closely with our Korean allies and the U.S. Army in exploring alternative options to dispose of these firearms.””

“But gun rights advocates point out that possessing M1 rifles is legal in the United States — M1s are semi-automatics, not machine guns, meaning the trigger has to be pulled every time a shot is fired — and anyone who would buy a gun from South Korea would have to go through the standard background check.

“Any guns that retail in the United States, of course, including these, can only be sold to someone who passes the National Instant Check System,” said David Kopel, research director at the conservative Independence Institute. “There is no greater risk from these particular guns than there is from any other guns sold in the United States.”

M1 carbines can hold high-capacity ammunition clips that allow dozens of rounds to be fired before re-loading, but Chris Cox, chief lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, noted that is true about any gun in which an ammunition magazine can be inserted — including most semi-automatics.

“Anything that accepts an external magazine could accept a larger capacity magazine,” Cox said.

“But the average number of rounds fired in the commission of a crime is somewhere between 1 and 2 … this issue just shows how little the administration understands about guns.”

He called the administration’s decision “a de facto gun ban, courtesy of Hillary Clinton’s State Department.”

Asked why the M1s pose a threat, the State Department spokesman referred questions to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. ATF representatives said they would look into the question Monday afternoon, but on Wednesday they referred questions to the Justice Department. DOJ spokesman Dean Boyd referred questions back to the State Department.””

“”M1s are used for target practice. For history buffs, they’re highly collectible. We’re going to continue to make sure that this backdoor effort that infringes not only on lawful commerce but on the Second Amendment is rectified.””

Read more:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/01/obama-administration-reverses-course-forbids-sale-antique-m-rifles/

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68 responses to “Obama snubs Second Amendment and American made guns, M1 Garands from South Korea

  1. off topic:
    This is an awesome speech by Chrissie O’Donnell. If I lived in DE, I would vote for her.
    http://www.theodoresworld.net/

  2. THIS IS ONE OF THE GREATES INTELLIGENCE COUPS IN HISTORY.

  3. CC
    “These people may just attach themselves to a DIFFERENT guru and believe themselves relieved and enlightened?”
    I left you a comment at :

    https://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/obama-pravda-article-obama-the-narcissist-liar-and-con-man-birth-certificate-con/#comment-15For Immediate Release: – 09/17/20109651

  4. Speedy – I heard her speech on c-span radio last night. I liked the intro about the “Bumble Bee not supposed to be able to fly”.
    For the legal eagles here, I typed up “Barry Soetoro Wikipedia” and got this -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories

  5. I looked at that Wikipedia article and what they have to say is pretty stupid. They are calling millions of Americans conspiracy theorists. One part says validity of bo’s birth certificate… what birth certificate. We haven’t seen a real one yet, except for the copy Lucas Smith obtained from Kenya. They all refer to that piece of photoshopped garbage they called a scanned image. What a bunch of baloney. Anyway, I like the photos of the sign and the photo of his phoney COLB next to a real HI birth certificate. I hope all this crap will soon backfire on these lying liberals.

  6. CW…
    On previous thread, November 2, 2010, Buh bye congress, Vote jackasses out, Video, Citizen Wells open thread, September 18, 2010
    I posted a letter I sent to Jim DeMint for Gordo to read…and failed to delete my email…could you???

    JJ | September 18, 2010 at 4:38 pm |

    Thanks..
    signed…dum-dum!

  7. Referral from State Dept. to ATF to Justice Dept. back to State Dept…..
    yep, definite bureaucracy BS.

  8. Speedy – This will be a good lesson to the Power Whores. If the Conservative – Republicans take over the House and/or Senate you will see a change in their attitude. They flow with the power. The irony is that Google (it owns Youtube) has become the main reason for the destruction of the liberals. They are eating themselves alive.

  9. “Governments, states, cities and even rural towns, believing they are participating in a Homeland Security initiative, have contracted with this and other organizations under foreign control, read “Israeli,” tracking organizations as diverse as the Tea Party and the Sierra Club. Reports submitted by ITTR showed them spying on nearly every organization they could find, no matter how innocent, patriotic or public minded. Organizations tied to Jewish causes, however, managed, somehow, to slip under the radar.
    Those that were included are so comprehensive that it would be nearly impossible for an American to escape having confidential files, collected under government authority and financing, paid for by American taxpayers, held by Israeli intelligence agencies. In fact, databases include every organization, regardless of its membership or policies, with personal information on members being stored in databases in Israel.Never has a nation funded a foreign spy organization’s efforts to catalog potential intelligence assets, operatives and, at the same time, take over the job of watching themselves. This is one of the greatest intelligence coups in history. Combine this with control of America’s airport security and total control of America’s communications networks, everything, mobile, internet, even landlines….we might as well pull down the flag and roll over.”

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/09/17/gordon-duff-caught-mossad-paid-by-u-s-to-spy-on-dissidents-tea-party-environmentalists/

  10. ms. helga | September 18, 2010 at 2:53 pm |

    I read all that to say this:
    He is not a natural born citizen; he was born to a British father; he was adopted and given Indonesian citizenship; he can not have dual citizenship for the office of presidency; he is legally Barry Soetoro unless someone can obtain a legal name change document.
    What part of that does the author of ‘barack obama citizenship conspiracy theories’ not understand??

  11. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    Yesterday LAME CHERRY put up a great piece on “Why Iran”?

    As a teaser, here are the first few paragraphs:

    Suppose in your quiet neighborhood you had a neighbor. Suppose this neighbor was a great neighbor. They got along with the Jews, got along with the Arabs, and when the prices got to high to fill your car, they actually used their credit card to offset every one’s gas prices when you filled up.

    Then suppose this neighbor actually bought piles of stuff from the place you worked, just so you would keep your job, because your community was buying things this family sold and needed.

    Into this one day, you came home, and a bunch of protesters were screaming for this family to be booted out of your neighborhood. Everyone in your community wanted to keep them, but for some reason the next thing you knew they family was gone, and they were replaced with a bunch of terrorists who brought in more terrorists and started a nuclear dump as they murdered your neighbors.

    That is exactly what Americans had in the Shah of Iran, a great guy who kept oil prices low, was against communists, bought American goods, traded with Jews, kept the peace with Sunni Arabs and was the kind of ally which any nation dreams of.

    For this Jimmy Carter allowed Zbigniew Brzezinski to bring in those Islamocommunists of the Khomeini Baathists allied with not only Saddam Hussein but Moscow, because for some reason which has never been explained, Brzezinski figured creating Muslim terrorists to make war on the Soviet Union was a genius thing compared to an ally in the Shah who brought peace and stability to the world.

  12. JJ | September 18, 2010 at 5:45 pm |

    ms. helga | September 18, 2010 at 2:53 pm |

    I read all that to say this:
    He is not a natural born citizen; he was born to a British father; he was adopted and given Indonesian citizenship; he can not have dual citizenship for the office of presidency; he is legally Barry Soetoro unless someone can obtain a legal name change document.
    What part of that does the author of ‘barack obama citizenship conspiracy theories’ not understand??
    ************************************************************
    JJ, no kidding, what more proof do we need to convince anyone with a brain that Obama cannot be president, he doesn’t qualify for the position, not only that but Obama knows he doesn’t qualify, Obama is an enemy and is hiding his true identity so he can stay as a usurper, to inflict more damage on our country.

  13. CC,
    I bit and read your links downstairs. Please answer me this: What about the 911 “conspiracy” do you find so offensive? The idea of an American coverup? Or the idea of Israeli involvement?

  14. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    ON-TOPIC TO THIS THREAD -

    For those of you who may not be gun buffs, let me tell you how insidious and obscene this is. And also why it is a HUGE MAJOR step into the Federal Government infringement of gun rights.

    Even in all the arguments about the 2nd amendment and who it applies to, and so on, NO ONE has ever disagreed that it applies to the Federal Government. Does it apply to DC? Does it apply to States? Local communities? – all these have been subjects of recent legal activity. But the constitution is above all a charter for the Federal Government – and this 2nd amendment is a DIRECT COMMAND from the chartering states to the Federal Government – “YOU DO NOT MESS WITH OUR GUNS”.

    But even worse. These are the most benign guns imaginable. They are beloved by collectors and casual shooters. They are also part of some specific NRA-sanctioned competitive sports. They are NOT part of any warfare and NOT favored by any gangs or other illegal activities. They are too heavy and too awkward by modern standards. Nor are either of these very effective at the types of ranges or targets that gangsters or other such miscreants typically encounter.

    VERY IMPORTANTLY: Neither even remotely fits the definition or purpose of “assault weapon” which is a common subject of Liberal angst. So this is not just extending an already reviled and stupid (and I might add, totally ineffective for it’s supposed intended purpose) “ban” – but it bans or restricts a whole new type of firearm. And not just oddball ones, but widely used and much-beloved ones. Ones with particularly Emotional, Patriotic, and AMERICAN fond attachments.

    Then you need to understand that there is a long-established Government Department called the Department of Civilian Marksmanship. And their major initiative is the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Their charter is to get surplus and outmoded/outdated military weapons into the hands of civilians and promote skill and familiarity with same – FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY. Check out http://www.odcmp.com.

    Guess what the most popular, far and away, such guns are? You guessed it: M1 Garand and M1 Carbine. There are typically waiting lists for both and they are scooped up rapidly when they become available. This recently identified cache of SoKo surplus was to be a great boon for CMP. Restricting these guns – or even worse, destroying them – is a bitch slap of unimaginable proportions to the shooting community.

    For more history of mendacity, consider this. Remember our “buddy” BJ Clinton? He instituted the horrendous and ill-advised Assault Weapon Ban. I bet he did not even know about CMP. But apparently he learned real fast – for when it became evident that there were appearances of “left hand giveth and right hand taketh”, he kicked the ODCM out of the government and made it quasi-privatized. He would have totally squashed the ODCM if he could, but politically all he could do was just distance himself from it.

    So, for all the intervening years, the CMP has been operating quietly under the radar being a conduit for excess government weaponry into the hands of decent law-abiding citizens. I may have missed something, but I am very tuned into this sort of stuff, and I have NEVER heard of even one case of a CMP transfer going astray into the hands of a criminal.

    So, you see, folks – the government is clandestine and tricky. And this particular example that CW kindly posted is a REALLY BIG DEAL. And very diagnostic of a totally out-of-control government.

    Remember – the 2nd amendment protects all the rest.

  15. To hell with the elite MSM, the establishment politicians, and the “PTB’s” on this blog. My resume is not that impressive, I can’t ride a unicylce, I am not a lawyer, and I am not an EXPERT on anything other than skinned up knees, grass stains, and goulash. BUT I AM EXPECTING an answer to the damn question I have been putting forth all day…WHY ARE WE PAYING ISRAEL TO SPY ON US!!!!!

    “Governments, states, cities and even rural towns, believing they are participating in a Homeland Security initiative, have contracted with this and other organizations under foreign control, read “Israeli,” tracking organizations as diverse as the Tea Party and the Sierra Club. Reports submitted by ITTR showed them spying on nearly every organization they could find, no matter how innocent, patriotic or public minded. Organizations tied to Jewish causes, however, managed, somehow, to slip under the radar.
    Those that were included are so comprehensive that it would be nearly impossible for an American to escape having confidential files, collected under government authority and financing, paid for by American taxpayers, held by Israeli intelligence agencies. In fact, databases include every organization, regardless of its membership or policies, with personal information on members being stored in databases in Israel.Never has a nation funded a foreign spy organization’s efforts to catalog potential intelligence assets, operatives and, at the same time, take over the job of watching themselves. This is one of the greatest intelligence coups in history. Combine this with control of America’s airport security and total control of America’s communications networks, everything, mobile, internet, even landlines….we might as well pull down the flag and roll over.”

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/09/17/gordon-duff-caught-mossad-paid-by-u-s-to-spy-on-dissidents-tea-party-

  16. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    Prairie | September 18, 2010 at 6:57 pm |

    CC,
    I bit and read your links downstairs. Please answer me this: What about the 911 “conspiracy” do you find so offensive? The idea of an American coverup? Or the idea of Israeli involvement?

    ====================================

    There is NO DOUBT that the complete and true story is unavailable.

    There is LITTLE DOUBT that various shady figures have yet to be identified. For instance, if you want an American name, even a NeoCon name, I am very suspicious of Paul Wolfowitz for involvement in this and a lot of other things. Can’t prove, just suspicious.

    Similarly neither you or any other 9/11 CT’er can prove anything either. Just suspicions.

    Is it POSSIBLE that specific Israeli individuals or rogue elements were involved, sure. Is it POSSIBLE that a few rogue individuals that are associated with Bush administration are involved, sure.

    But the following are outrageous and repugnant:

    1. Muslims not involved, or even Muslims played a weak role.

    2. False Flag operation by official (as opposed to rogue) Bush Admin.

    3. Israeli/Zionist operation.

    4. That any TRUE AMERICAN would prematurely jump to any of the above conclusions as long as any other possible explanation were still standing.

    For example – a preview of my promised Pentagon essay:

    For every anomaly, there are multiple competing theories and explanations. It is very premature to latch on to any one of them.

    That summary is VERY PROFOUND and it would be wise to contemplate it very carefully and thoroughly.

  17. JJ @ 4:48 pm |
    “I posted a letter I sent to Jim DeMint for Gordo to read”
    I loved your letter to Mr. DeMint. It made me think of George Washington and his followers- 30 per cent of the colonists were patriot/rebels the other 70 per cent benefited from their sacrifices. Human nature, such is life. Everyone in our current government will say some day “I could have been a patriot”. WE THE PEOPLE have been asking this question since 08 response from gov’t-media: try to ignore it, it will go away, put the COLB a/k/a PAID POLITICAL ANNOUNCEMENT on the internet and pretend it’s a birth certificate, out-right lie, etc. Then to add insult to injury they say vote for us and their entire job is supposed to be representing the people. They take oaths, they waste their breath, that makes the oath a lie too. They see the Tea Party as a rebellion against the Republican Party, got that wrong too, the Democrats are twice as incensed due to election fraud of 08. They can’t figure out why Obama’s numbers are in the pits since June of 09? They say it’s the Independents-WE THE PEOPLE/Tea Party are from all the different parties converged into one body, one mind, one soul, one spirit that will fight for our Constitutional Republic. We are further along in this process than I thought we would be at this point. Voting all incumbents out- due to all the insults, over many long months seems to be the way to go, since most people who questioned their representatives on the Obama eligibility issue were demeaned, ignored, insulted ….what citizen in our country needs or deserves a traitorous and gutless representative? They act like it will kill them to ask, not asking will get them voted out.

  18. CC,
    Am I un-American to believe that BP and the government are attacking the gulf?

    You are making a lot of assumptions about Truthers just as many are painting the Birthers with a broad brush. It saddens me that you are so head strong with predetermined prejudice.

  19. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    Prairie | September 18, 2010 at 7:22 pm |

    ================================

    Alas, you appear to understand nothing about spying or top-tier military strategy. Everybody spies on everybody else. Allies use each other’s resources. Sometimes in the open and above board – “Hey, you got some assets over there and we don’t, can you check something out for us?”. Sometimes under the table – and admittedly open to heated discussions as to legitimacy – “Hey, you got different facilities or rules of engagement, can you do this thing for us”.

    Does it surprise you that US Government spy organizations have assassinated people? Would it make any difference to you if they did it themselves directly or had an ally do it?

    Do you think the US Government ever spies on any of it’s citizens? Would it make any difference to you if they did it themselves directly or worked with allies?

    Do you think that the US Government spies on Russians? Chinese? English? French? Israelis? Do you think any of these might reciprocate?

    You know that we have thousands of nuclear warheads, right? Would it surprise you to know that as part of necessary and legitimate war planning that various targets and routes and timings have been worked out?

    Do you think that all these possible targets are only on enemy land? Is it possible that friend today may be enemy tomorrow? Do you think the primary Cold War doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (MADD) was/is a joke? Do you think it is some sort of grand overarching wishy washy paradigm or do you think that maybe there were some very specific “guns” pointed at some very specific “heads”, fully cocked and loaded and hair triggers? Do you think MADD is/was just an “active” concept requiring positive direct commands? Or do you think that many failsafe mechanisms were built in? All of which I will loosely describe as “you can decapitate me as thoroughly and deeply as you like and I can still destroy you”. Remember our discussion on COG? Double it. Square it. Cube it.

    Just because you recently discovered how sausage is made, please don’t burst a spleen over it. If you can’t stomach it, look the other way.

  20. CC,
    Thank you for the honest answer.
    I am treading in open water and fighting back the current. There have been too many false bottoms, loose branches, and slippery rocks for me to count. I hope I recognize solid ground when or if it comes. I hope I recognize those who are reaching out and trying to pull me ashore.

  21. I rarely comment here but I’ve gotta say — PRAIRIE, you’re getting tiresome with your obsession. Is your goal to distract? Let me give you a clue…..Jews had nothing to do with 9-11. We all know it was the ‘religion of peace’ so why not give it a rest? (Though I doubt that’s gonna happen…considering your obsession and all.)

  22. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    Prairie | September 18, 2010 at 7:38 pm |

    CC,
    Am I un-American to believe that BP and the government are attacking the gulf?

    You are making a lot of assumptions about Truthers just as many are painting the Birthers with a broad brush. It saddens me that you are so head strong with predetermined prejudice.

    ===============================

    Perhaps. There is more suspicion and paranoia than actual facts.

    However, having said that, I personally am VERY SUSPICIOUS. But suspicion is not proof and I strongly believe any wise and honest person should not stray farther out on to the thin ice than the fact can hold up.

    Perhaps, the answer is in the definition of “believe”. If you use a weak form of “believe” akin to “suspect”, then I agree with you. If you use the stronger more religious form of “believe” akin to “know”, then I disagree. Finally, one of my key gripes with CT’ers is that they most frequently fall prey to an insidious form of “believe” akin to “wish”.

    Consider these observations.

    Did the official Bush Administration (as contrasted with a random rogue individual or two) ever do anything grossly Un American that would pre-dispose anyone to suspect that they perpetrated in inside job on 9/11. Clearly no.

    Did the official Obama Administration (as contrasted with a random rogue individual or two) ever do anything grossly Un American that would pre-dispose anyone to suspect that they perpetrated in inside job on the GOM. Clearly yes.

    So, yes, you have a good point that Commander Zero and his Flying Minkeys should be suspected of all these types of heinous crimes.

    Can it be proved yet? No. Do I believe it yet? No. Do I wish it? You betcha. Do I suspect it? Absolutely.

    The one thing we DO know, however, is that CZ and his FM’s have definitely exploited the situation against all that is good and holy. We also DO know that they have inadequately handled the chemicals and the oil and the contamination.

    If we (all of us here and our like-minded souls on other blogs) are going to win, we are going to have to inhabit, defend, and hold the high moral ground. To do that we must live ONLY in fact-world. And eschew all fairy tales. But as regards action plans – we need to do everything we can to research and prosecute those things we suspect so that they can be turned into facts. But that also means we need to be prepared to let go of cherished beliefs (suspicions, wishes) when the facts have been ironed out and turn against us.

    Finally, contrary to YOUR assumption, I make no assumptions, nor do I paint with a broad brush. If you read or reread my post on the conundrum of how to identify actual CT’s (you know the REAL ones, not the pretend ones), you will see that I have no prejudice. I simply identify the extreme difficulty of identifying a conspiracy. Let me try to say it a different way:

    I know and it is easily proved that a vast majority of CT’s are total crap. That necessarily throws suspicion on anyone who buys into any CT, even the real ones. That is also why it is EXTREMELY important to be especially and extra diligent to not get sucked into a fairy tale. The chances that any one of us True Seekers actually stumbles onto a real CT is near zero. It is MUCH MORE LIKELY that we have been suckered by a charismatic conman. Just do the math.

    Bottom line – as in my summary of the Pentagon situation – stay away from CT’s unless there is no other alternative. Also, CT’s are necessarily complex. Simple explanations are always better. See Occam’s Razor – a profound philosophical principle and a bedrock of Clear Thinking.

    Final thought – I fell into “believing” (in this case, “knowing”) that Zero is not a citizen only after every other possible explanation was exhausted. But I still loose much sleep and ponder a lot if, even with all my care, I too may have been suckered into a Fairy Tale. It worries me a lot. For Zero to be illegal and ineligible – it would mean the biggest fraud, the biggest hoax, and the biggest conspiracy of all time. How could little ol’ me – Mr. “All CT’s are bad” – accept a CT like this. It is very hard for me.

  23. Yikes, Democratic Party is loonier than I ever imagined.
    http://www.breitbart.tv/former-dnc-chair-howard-dean-reveals-how-democrats-evade-tough-questions/
    “You don’t EVER have to answer the question!!!”

  24. http://www.breitbart.tv/odonnell-addresses-values-voter-summit/
    ” The DE GOP Senate Candidate in her first major speech since winning this week’s primary. After all of the negative attention from the elite media, Ms. O’Donnell appears to win over her audience and does not appear to be the insane moron she has been painted as. Could it be that all of the piling on will end up working to her benefit?

  25. CC,
    I hope you read my post at 8:02. I am going to spend the night with my kids. Thank you, I was going under.

  26. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    Prairie | September 18, 2010 at 8:02 pm |

    ===============================

    Very seriously – I DO NOT KNOW how to reconcile the sovereignty of We The People and the individual’s right to know, with the necessities of the modern international world.

    I think you have mentioned 1913 and the Federal Reserve before. The idea that this is unconstitutional and profoundly negative on America. Others burst a spleen over The Evil Corporation. I do not for two reasons: 1) I believe it is a simple legal fiction to allow the governments and courts to properly interact within the rules of the court. It allows the government to have an “identity” that fits within the legal framework. Without that rule or fiction, laws would have to be rewritten and severely “complexified”. 2) even if everything they say about Evil Corporation is true, I don’t think it rises to the level of alarm as many other things. So it is low on my priority.

    For instance, Federal Reserve and 1913 is worse. But even far FAR worse is the post WWII financial agreements known as Bretton Woods. Named after the resort in New Hampshire where the financial elite (no, not the jews) holed up and agreed to rape us all.

    We The People did not get to vote on that, we didn’t really even vote on it. Even our representatives were hood-winked. They basically sent these multi-national experts off to cook up something, and lacking the ability to even understand what the experts cooked up, the congress basically rubber stamped it.

    That agreement is directly responsible for EVERYTHING that is wrong with our financial system today. And it also binds us economically with all other nations in a mutual death grip. People are now wailing about a NWO. We already have had it since 1947. People are now wailing about a world currency. We already have had it since 1947.

    Why do you think we went off the gold standard in 1971? The Bretton Woods system BLEW US UP. At that point, we were not only bankrupt, but unable to even service our debts. Our ONLY choice was to renege on all our worldwide promises to pay gold. Instead we just paid “worthless” – i.e. based on nothing – US Dollars. The only reason the world went along with it is because the only other choice would have been worse. Before that time, the world’s financial system was circling a drain (a toilet, if you will). Since that time, it has been spiraling out of control.

    I am not talking about current jobs recession and the internal US budget issues – that was most directly caused by congressional overspending and the fallout from the Community Reinvestment Act. (Neither of which has anything to do with jews and none of which was caused by “greedy” wall street – those are all bright red herrings – as is Zero’s famous “financial reform”). I am talking about the great international economic crisis, including the Euro Zone, Greece, and all that.

    My point is, I guess, that some the penny ante stuff people want to whine about and some of the “OMG this or that is about to happen” is overwhelmed by what has already happened.

    My other point is that the International World is incredibly complex and hostile. Regarding spies and missiles and bombs and COG and all that I have only told you a fraction of what I know – because I know more than I am allowed to say. But even though I claim to rather tightly “plugged in” – I highly suspect that I “don’t know the half of it”.

    But from what I do know of all of this – nobody is perfect and alliances are somewhat fluid and things come and go – the Jews/Israel are are friends, while NorKo, Iran, Palestine, and Islam JIHAD (which I claim covers pretty much all Muslims) not so much.

    To me, hating Jews/Israel is exactly like if you have a VERY GOOD neighbor. He does everything for you, mows your lawn, takes care of your kids, bails you out when you need help, financial support, runs errands, etc. etc., and then his dog pisses on your grass – and now you hate him. And even worse, he has an evil gang living next door on the other side who abuses him – and you don’t even lift a finger to help, but you actually take sides with the thugs, just because the dog pissed your lawn.

    That’s just too weird for me.

  27. bob strauss | September 18, 2010 at 6:28 pm | JJ | September 18, 2010 at 5:45 pm |

    ************************************************************
    JJ, no kidding, what more proof do we need to convince anyone with a brain that Obama cannot be president,

    I left one out Mr. Bob….there are no records to prove the fraud EVER applied for or received American citizenship…it’ll only get worse for this country…this anti-American is up to no good….the people know it, the Congress know it, Supreme court knows it, and soon the Democrats that don’t know it will see the light.

  28. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    indymac | September 18, 2010 at 8:14 pm |

    ================================

    Sure, that’s true – but -

    You may be more perfect than me, but most of us have been sucker punched at least once or twice. I believe Prairie to be an Honest Seeker. Otherwise I would not write long answers to her questions. I believe she inadvertently got sucked into a whirlpool – a good friend, and respected colleague, I don’t know. But I feel like she is passionate but seeking.

    The passion comes out when she says what she believes. But like my sausage making analogy, every new nasty bit is alarming. The problem is that the international scene is chock full of nasty bits. The art is knowing which ones are worth worrying about and if new ones show up – to guess or predict what they portend.

    It is a basic CONUNDRUM of the complexity of our national and international governments that the typical citizen does not have access to (notice – I didn’t say they were dumb) the information necessary to even elect a president let alone form any good rational idea of anything to do with foreign policy.

    Some of us have been lucky enough (not priviliged, not smart, not better) to have been exposed to more of this. All we can do is share what we know and hope that enough Honest Seekers will grab ahold and drift in the right direction.

    In the meantime, all True Seekers are probably going to grab a bad log once in a while. The trick is knowing when to let go and grab a better one. Some people are hopelessly wedded to their bad logs. I don’t think Praire is.

    Anybody who asks honest questions deserves honor and respect.

    Finally, since I brought it up, let me be BLAZINGLY CLEAR on THE GREAT CONUNDRUM.

    We don’t dare turn the government over to The Elites as that way surely lies corruption and tyranny. Yet “the people” do not know enough to make good choices. That my friend, to use a highly technical term, is known as a “B I T C H”.

  29. Prairie | September 18, 2010 at 6:57 pm | CC,
    I bit and read your links downstairs. Please answer me this: What about the 911 “conspiracy” do you find so offensive? The idea of an American coverup? Or the idea of Israeli involvement?

    It’s obviously the deaths, huh, Prairie.

  30. Michelle | September 18, 2010 at 8:23 pm |

    Well, soon, hopefully, the dems won’t have to worry about evading questions from the citizens whom they purportedly represent. We will have thoroughly evaded them, instead.

  31. a seeker who is obsessed with jews. when the threat is coming from those who like said seeker are also obsessed with jews. i get it now.

  32. Prairie | September 18, 2010 at 7:22 pm |
    Prairie, I don’t have a fancy resume either….but I’d bet my last nickel that Israel isn’t the only one spying!!

  33. indymac | September 18, 2010 at 8:14 pm
    I spent weeks on research; had pages and pages, and lost all with my hard drive—but I’d debate you any day.
    I guess you think this country wasn’t behind the false flag Gulf Of Tonkin either??

    And tread lightly—-my husband spent 2 years in Viet Nam.

    On this blog…we don’t attack posters for their beliefs; whether they be religious or political.

  34. JJ

    Thanks for the informative flu vaccine update from SueK.

    Please give her my regards.

  35. wow, jj et al, i must have struck a nerve. do whatever you want with this site. if you want to focus on jews instead of jihadists and you want to sling far out 911 truther conspiriacies, and if you think that helps promote citizenwells, go ahead. I mean, my conspiracy theory is that there are several posters on this site who are here only to distract and spew a bunch of bull that is designed to obstruct real truth from being spread on this site. PS: you lost your hard drive? What about your backup?

  36. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    I’m curious.

    Have you ever read Escape from Reason by Francis Schaeffer?

    In one of your posts, you mentioned the current “battle of ideas.” Surveying current events (and history, too) from the realm of ideas is heady stuff, imo. (Ooops. No pun intended)

    Observing the way ideas, coded as beliefs, intersect with human behavior, especially decision-making, is kind of like being mesmerized by a multi-dimensional kaleidoscope, even in the face of the inevitable, ensuing battles.

  37. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    JJ | September 18, 2010 at 9:17 pm |

    ==============================

    There are layers of truth. Perhaps the Gulf of Tonkin thing has been peeled back a little, but I doubt if the complete truth is still known. Among other things, the complete motives of whoever was involved with what.

    Ruse de guerre – a fundamental part of any war. Fooling an enemy (or an international entity messing in your affairs) is quite legitimate. Fooling friends and allies is generally frowned on but may be necessary. Fooling your own country? Sounds bad, doesn’t it? Suppose some extremely hostile americans daily committing crimes against humanity and the constitution (you know, maybe some of Commander Zero’s Flying Minkeys, for instance), a little subterfuge to confuse or stymie them? Close call.

    Just don’t be thinking you know everything there is to know.

  38. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    indymac | September 18, 2010 at 9:28 pm |

    ==================================

    Some people who post here have an insane jew-hate. Others are more toward the end of the spectrum that Jews/Israel have too much influence over us. Others don’t care or don’t worry about it.

    I am on record as at least leaning toward “they have too much influence on us”. But I have said that is a minor problem compared to Real Issues that are pressing on us. So it is not my priority to worry about it.

    I have also said no matter what you postulate about Jews/Israel, Muslims/Islam are far FAR worse. And NOTHING pizzes me off so much or is so insane is siding with Palestinians against Israel. And that leads inexorably to “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. So, I agree totally: LAY OFF THE JEWS.

    But from time to time I see a glimmer of hope. Somebody who has been misled but who is still seeking. I try to communicate with those people. I hope I do not take too much blog space on this particular quest.

  39. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    !?!! | September 18, 2010 at 9:55 pm |

    =================================

    No, but maybe I should?

    I went and looked at the table of contents. I am widely read and well versed in all the people and topics listed. So this sounds like something interesting. Perhaps having all compressed into one book, into a cohesive whole, with some kind of connective thread – perhaps it would be enlightening and revealing.

    Thanks for the tip.

  40. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO) | September 18, 2010 at 10:03 pm |

    “Just don’t be thinking you know everything there is to know.”
    *****************************************
    That is very good advice for any and all. Regardless of the subject or whatever level we as individuals may be on, a spirit of humility will serve us well as we seek for the truth. Honest seekers are refreshing and we all should strive in that direction.

    Frankly, I do have a problem with the continual in-depth obsession with past events which have been and continue to be the subject of such intense speculation. We will never have all of the info about the assassination of President Kennedy. That controversy will rage on and on. Likewise, The Gulf of Tonkin matter, all of the details concerning 9/11 and other events.

    Being rather a pragmatist, I don’t see how continued delving into such does any real good now or in the future. Oh, I can see where it makes for some good discussion, perhaps akin to theological students who argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. On the negative side, this speculation can be very frustrating to some, even to the point of despair.

    These things are history and we should learn from the past, but that doesn’t mean that we have to use a magnifying glass on them to the point of worry and despair. That is futility.

  41. Did the foundation and organization of our government include an explicit or implicit understanding that deception of the citizens by their government is okay, unavoidable, status quo?

    Is deception as the norm for government leaders — in all three branches — compatible with a truly representative government which safeguards the rights of the citizens?

  42. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO) | September 18, 2010 at 10:19 pm |

    Sure. I have no doubts your intellect will consume the whole in one short gulp.

  43. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    !?!! | September 18, 2010 at 9:55 pm |

    Do you know if The Trilogy is availabe in PDF or EPUB format? Not necessary that it is free, I’m willing to pay – it’s just that I do all my reading these days on a Digital Reader. I have every Great Book from before Aristotle to about 50 years ago in there. I add the newer books when I can. I have close to 3,000 books and I take it everywhere with me. I call it “library on a stick”. Oh, and I found this paragraph in a book review – sounds like my kind of guy!

    In a time when true scholarship is often equated with specialization in a particular period, people, or subject, Schaeffer was a grand generalist. He was a true Renaissance man who knew something about everything, as opposed to everything about something. In addition to his remarkable and encyclopedic knowledge of human history, he was able to connect important events together such that Christians can see what has happened in human history, what is happening now, and what will happen if man continues on his present course. Schaeffer was a visionary who had an uncanny understanding of the times we live in and what mankind can expect in the near future.

  44. !?!! 10:31 PM
    Is deception as the norm for government leaders — in all three branches — compatible with a truly representative government which safeguards the rights of the citizens?
    **********************************
    It seems that the answer is “yes” if it contributes to the safety and security of the citizens and is not in violation of the Constitution. That would be my short answer. For example, we always want to be honest with our children. Right? Suppose you are asleep in the same bedroom with your child and you hear a prowler in the other part of the house. Do you tell your child, or do you let him sleep on? That depends, of course, on the exact circumstances, wouldn’t we say?

    I’m reminded of a story my mother used to tell about a peeping tom that made a visit to their bedroom window while she and her sisters, as young girls, were asleep. Her older sister saw this man with a flashlight going from one window to another. She kept very, very quiet and did not let my mother, her younger sister, know about it until later, when the danger had passed. Otherwise, my mother probably would have let out a scream, which might have been bad under the circumstances.

    So, this is a homey analogy, but it proves the point that there are some things best left unknown at certain times. That is not dishonesty; it is wisdom.

  45. I might add to my 10:53 PM post that this is the reason why we must elect the best, most trustworthy people with the highest level of character that we can to governmental offices, from the top down. Otherwise, we will lack trust in their decisions.

  46. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO) | September 18, 2010 at 10:44 pm |

    Nope. I don’t know.

    Do you have anything C.S. Lewis in your collection?
    The Abolition of Man seems prescient to me.

    The themes in That Hideous Strength (subtitled: A Modern Fairy Tale for Grown-ups) — the 3rd and final book of his science fiction trilogy also seems apropos to our times, imo.

  47. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    !?!! | September 18, 2010 at 10:33 pm |

    Now, now – I am an eager devourer of knowledge – but I am not smart enough to inhale or gulp things. Alas, it is hard and tedious work. Somebody once accused me of being “passionate” in my obsession with learning. I think they were being nice, they were probably wishing to say “compulsive” or “obsessive”.

    !?!! | September 18, 2010 at 10:31 pm |

    Did the foundation and organization of our government include an explicit or implicit understanding that deception of the citizens by their government is okay, unavoidable, status quo? Is deception as the norm for government leaders — in all three branches — compatible with a truly representative government which safeguards the rights of the citizens?

    Clearly the Founders were familiar with Ruse de Guerre. But it was never anticipated that The People would be involved in the strategy of war. In fact, as late as the Civil War, and maybe a bit later, The People were not involved. Sure, soldiers went off to fight, but there was little news and little knowledge for people back home. Nor did they have any opinion of the conduct of the war other than winning and losing.

    In the WW’s of the last century, people were patriotic and black and white. We knew who the enemy was and we wanted them to lose. Our boys went “over there” and they did their business. Each soldier was important to someone and there were joys and tears, but at the top level the war was described in statistics – our killed and wounded vs. their killed and wounded. Thousands were killed in a single day and 10′s or 100′s of thousands in a single week. But as long as we won – that was the thing.

    Viet Nam changed all that. Now everyday people were embedded in the war (via TV). Every soldier lost became an specific crisis. Casualties were now enumerated and identified, not rolled up into statistics. And now in recent times, 3-4000 casualties for an entire multi-war is somehow a MAJOR NATIONAL CATASTROPHE. “Everybody” (who really knew nothing about anything) thought they were now war experts. The sausage making was open for all to see.

    I always thought it most interesting that – even without government prohibitions – reporters and MSM had more intelligence to post real-time cameras in every slaughter house, yet they somehow came up with the insane idea of live coverage of a war!

    The point being – No, the Founding Fathers did not foresee this. There is little if any founding-era literature on government secrets. At least nothing very meaningful to modern times.

    Clearly one of the reasons it is a conundrum.

    In my opinion, the Viet Nam war stands out as blazing obvious truth that The People cannot handle the truth. And at the time, I can assure you that the PTBs were unprepared for impact this had on EVERYTHING. So the PTBs had to make up a lot of stuff as they went along – as regards openness and secrets – and they got a lot of it wrong.

    The only way I know to fix it and largely remove the conundrum is to go back to a strictly hierarchical system of representation. In that scenario the people are not involved in any day-to-day, any month-to-month, and barely and year-to-year running of the government. I have been planning to write an essay on this hierarchical form of representation as detailed by the Founding Fathers. But it would be longer than any article or comment ever posted on this blog before.

    It would be stunning and world-view-shattering. And I don’t know how you could ever overcome the political forces (especially Party forces) that would prevent return to this form.

    Here’s a tiny hint: Presidents are supposed to be selected almost identically as to how a pope is selected. A group of elders (cardinals=electors) would lock themselves up into a room and pick somebody (presumably from among themselves?) and announce their choice to the world. We would all be surprised. There would be no Partys, no campaigning, and no General Election. These things are all wrong, wrong, wrong.

    They – the Founding Fathers – knew that mob rule would not work. They also new that the average citizen was totally without the knowledge needed to choose a President. Somehow we have unlearned all that.

    And – why did I bring this up? – If we run the government with these strict layers of hierarchy, then it eliminates the need for all this secrecy and concerns about “the people can’t handle the truth”. Truth would be divided in layers. Only each layer would interact with the layer above and below it. Knowledge and facts needed to operate any layer would be confined to that layer and only bleed over a little into adjacent layers but no further.

    Software designers figured out a similar scheme a few decades ago. Software became so complex that the resulting “intertwined spaghetti” became impossible to build, impossible to test, impossible to operate, and impossible to troubleshoot or fix. So almost all modern software is now built on this paradigm of strict hierarchical layers and isolation of information to just where it is needed.

    Our Founding Fathers were 200 years ahead of their time. It took scientists all that time to re-invent what the Founding Fathers already knew.

  48. Cabby – AZ | September 18, 2010 at 10:53 pm |

    I can see your point. I haven’t formulated a solid “rationale” for what I think yet. I appreciate your input. Discussion helps me get a more comprehensive view, pointing out aspects that I haven’t thought of.

    I think, if asked point blank whether or not a prowler had been around our house, though, I would relate the facts, at an age-appropriate level, of course. I would also discuss a family plan to deal with any recurrence, and, hopefully, address any fears caused by knowing the facts.

    The lies told by our government today through the media are so bad, people can’t help but see through them. One reasonable question blows the “report” to shreds. (Consider the patchwork cover-up of the Ft. Hood massacre, for instance.)

    Knowing you’re being lied to and treated like you have no brain at all, or even the right to an intellect, does not generate trust.

    I know I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know here. I got going on that ol’ soapbox again.

    Equipping citizens to deal with life’s realities rather than dumbing them down with lies and cover-ups that don’t hold up under reasonable examination seems a better option to me.

  49. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    !?!! | September 18, 2010 at 11:01 pm |

    ==============================

    Everything CSL ever wrote is in my digital reader. And has been read multiple times. Everything he wrote is like scripture to me. Even parts of Narnia! (Not the stupid movie, the books – they just turned the movie into fantasy adventure and did not adequately capture the wisdom!)

  50. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    Cabby – AZ | September 18, 2010 at 10:30 pm |

    “Just don’t be thinking you know everything there is to know.”

    ======================================

    People pick on me for being a “know it all”. But they don’t read carefully. EVERY debate, almost without exception, I take the “know it less” position. Many times I will share opinions and discuss things back and forth. But when I get up on my high horse and rain hell down on people – is almost ALWAYS because THEY “know to much”. It is when they “know so much that isn’t so”.

    I find that when the facts are known and we all stay on the thick ice with a firm foundation, almost all right-thinking people agree and come to the same conclusion.

    Best recent example: What exactly happened at the Pentagon on 9/11?

    Right answer: No good complete explanation yet, whole truth still unknown.

    Wrong answer: “anything”. Any answer is wrong. There is not enough firm foundation to formulate an answer.

    Another similar situation: What did Jews/Israel have to do with anything on 9/11?

    Right answer: Mr. “know it all” says: I don’t know.

    Wrong answer: Ms. “jew hater” says: Everything

  51. !?!! | September 18, 2010 at 9:27 pm | JJ

    Thanks for the informative flu vaccine update from SueK.

    Please give her my regards.
    !!!!!!!!!
    ….I did thank her and I miss her too.
    I knew those here were of the like ind regarding the evil perpetrated by big pharma.

  52. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    HEY EVERYBODY

    We seem to have got off on to these huge high-flying philosophical discussions. So let’s get down to some nitty gritty.

    Did y’all see my brilliant essay that was actually on-topic above? Read it, it’s really important stuff.

    Good night – been a long day – - -

  53. …..were of the like MIND..
    Reading Bible study lesson and this don’t jive well.

  54. indymac | September 18, 2010 at 9:28 pm |
    Oh, I’m just learning…from my Jewish friends….Jews are not always Zionists…but Zionists are always Jews.

  55. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO) | September 18, 2010 at 11:19 pm |

    The enticements of the realm of ideas ARE difficult, no, impossible to resist.
    *****
    Hmmm. Our concepts of representative government do differ quite a bit.

  56. indymac | September 18, 2010 at 9:28 pm |there are several posters on this site who are here only to distract and spew a bunch of bull that is designed to obstruct real truth from being spread on this site.
    My response is : you don’t know me—don’t judge me from one post…I’ve been her for 2 years.

    PS: you lost your hard drive? What about your backup?
    I’m computer illiterate…not into computers.
    I’m still 2000 XP.

  57. JJ | September 18, 2010 at 11:41 pm |

    Those computer keys do seem to jump around at times, too, though. I’m convinced of it. lol

    Yeah. SueK posted so much valuable inside info.

    Happy Christian and Bible Study and Praying out loud to Jesus in public places Day.

  58. !?!! 11:23 PM
    The lies told by our government today through the media are so bad, people can’t help but see through them. One reasonable question blows the “report” to shreds. (Consider the patchwork cover-up of the Ft. Hood massacre, for instance.)

    Knowing you’re being lied to and treated like you have no brain at all, or even the right to an intellect, does not generate trust.
    ********************************
    Oh, !?!!, I couldn’t agree more with you!!! My other response was based more on a general overview – from a theoretical standpoint. What we are experiencing today is total depravity on the part of our government.

    They are lying, not to protect us from harm, but because they ARE liars – evil people who have evil designs to manipulate and control us. In my memory, this is something never before experienced to this extent and wrought with so much danger. This is truly unchartered territory for us. If this direction is not greatly reversed, we as a nation are headed for destruction, I fear.

  59. JJ, just get an external hard drive to back up any data you think important. I have a few of them and do double backups of important files. I’m also in the process of backing up my most important files on DVDs and putting them in a lead lined film shield in case of nearby lightning strikes or heaven’s forbid an EMP. . . As for my comments on 911 truther conspiracy theories or others that attempt to find Jews under every bed, I’m quite convinced that this plays into the hands of those who hate us. These ideas are quite common on sites like Huffington Post and amongst many islamofascists. On citizenwells they serve no purpose, IMO, other than to discredit this site. Perhaps that’s the goal of some here (I’m not pointing at you, since I really am not familiar with your previous posts.)

  60. Cabby – AZ | September 18, 2010 at 11:58 pm |

    Double Amen! to what you said.

    Orwell’s 1984 must be their handbook for how to deal with us pesky citizens. lol
    Except it isn’t a laughing matter.

    Seems like the people are battling back on a lot of fronts to reverse this trend. Hope millions and millions are coming to that “We won’t take this any more” moment.

  61. Cabby – AZ | September 18, 2010 at 11:58 pm |

    btw, What an awful experience for your sister.

  62. indymac 12:27 AM
    “As for my comments on 911 truther conspiracy theories or others that attempt to find Jews under every bed, I’m quite convinced that this plays into the hands of those who hate us.”
    **********************************
    Absolutely my opinion, too. In fact, earlier today I saw a video on a site by Walid Shoebat, the former Muslim who has been converted. An Islamic cleric is featured giving a public speech to Palestinians several years ago. If you want to more fully understand how we are giving aid and comfort to a very dangerous enemy when there are those who are Jew-bashing, or, even Zionist-bashing, just check out this site:

    http://www.shoebat.com/videos/palestinianTv.php

  63. indymac | September 18, 2010 at 9:28 pm |
    ” … there are several posters on this site who are here only to distract and spew a bunch of bull that is designed to obstruct real truth from being spread on this site….”
    ============================================
    Exactly. Notice the obots take up both sides of any subject that they want to use to distract from legitimate issues like NBC, BC, Grand Jury Indictments, and the bo/bp Poisoning of the Gulf.

    Here is an article about the obot tactic of arguing both side of the issue used to distract from intelligent debate of legitimate issues:

    http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/05/exposing-obamas-psyops-agents-and.html

  64. I’m with you on that FS, thanks for posting the link.

  65. bo/bp LIE about amount of POISON sprayed on Gulf.

  66. indymac | September 19, 2010 at 10:49 am | I’m with you on that FS, thanks for posting the link.
    ====================================

    U R WELCOME. THANK U FOR YOUR HELP IN EXPOSING THE OBOTS.

    Another obot tactic is personal attack. They tried to use that against you last night. Since my positions on NBC, BC, GRAND JURY INDICTMENTS and bo/bp POISONING of the GULF are correct the most notorious obots here try to attack me personally, I ignore them. What they want is to try and lure you into an argument. Again their only motive is to disrupt from intelligent discussion, so if you argue with the obots then they win.

    http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/2009/05/exposing-obamas-psyops-agents-and.html

  67. roger that FS!

  68. Citizen Carlyle (FUBO)

    indymac | September 19, 2010 at 11:24 am |

    ================================

    I think he was talking about me.
    I sincerely hope that is not what you are “rogering”.

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